Poland’s optimism and concern

On August 6 in Poland the new President Bronislaw Komo­row­ski assumed office; in the extraordinary elections on July 4 he defeated the leader of the opposition party Law and Justice Jaroslaw Kaczynski, the brother of former President Lech Kaczynski who died in the plane crash near Smolensk. Should changes be expected in Warsaw’s policy towards Kyiv fol­lowing the election for president of a member of the ruling party Civic Platform, which during the recent Uk­rainian presidential elections supported a representative of the “orange” forces? How does Poland assess the actions of the new Ukrai­nian government regarding Ukrai­ne’s EU integration, introducing Euro­pean standards, and also ob­ser­ving human rights, the freedom of speech and assembly? All this is discussed in The Day’s interview with Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of the Republic of Poland in Ukraine Jacek KLUCZ­KOWSKI.

“IN POLAND WE DON’T FEEL A LOSS OF INTEREST IN UKRAINE”

Mr. Ambassador, you must be familiar with the recent schedule of foreign visits of Ukrainian president which was made public on August 2. The capitals of Germany, Fran­ce, and Great Britain are mentioned there, but there is no Warsaw. Isn’t this an alarming sign in view of the fact that after Viktor Yanu­ko­vych’s coming to power there were no official meetings between high-level officials of our countries, while under the previous Ukrainian government the presidents and prime ministers of both countries met quite regularly?

“First of all I’d like to draw your attention to the fact that the reason for a weakening in the political dialog between our countries is to some extent a result of dramatic circumstances beyond our control.

“After the Smolensk tragedy we had to hold extraordinary presidential elections. Our presidential bodies are not yet formed. Our country also had serious floods. But on August 6 we will swear in a new president. And then we’ll be able to talk about the action plan, about the new beginning of Polish-Ukrainian relations. I want to point out that after the Smolensk tragedy Viktor Yanu­kovych was in Krakow — one of the three heads of states who could make it to Poland. I know that in our country it was viewed positively, and highlighted the special character of the Polish-Ukrainian relations, and the wish of the Ukrainian president to continue the tradition you have mentioned.”

And when can we expect its renewal?

“Already after the Smolensk tragedy ministers of foreign affairs met twice, a meeting of the ministers of agricultural policy took place as well. I can inform you that at present preliminary suggestions regarding meetings on the highest level are ready. In particular, a meeting of presidents of Poland and Ukraine is expected soon, as is a meeting of prime ministers. A coordination of these visits is currently being developed through diplomatic channels. I think they will take place in autumn; in my opinion, in August or early in September we’ll solve these issues. We already prepared a visit of the head of the internal service of Po­land’s president Jaromir Sokolowski who is part of Komorowski’s team. It is expected that on September 6 he will come to Kyiv and then we’ll discuss all questions regarding the meetings on the highest level.

“It’s clear that we should renew our political dialog both on the presidential and prime-ministerial levels. I think that in autumn a visit of Prime Minister Mykola Azarov to Poland will also take place. It is connected with the preparation of the organizing committee’s sitting on the Euro-2012, which is headed by the leaders of the governments. We also plan to conduct a sitting of the Intergovernmental council on transborder and regional cooperation.”

“IN AUTUMN WE’LL RENEW THE INTENSITY OF OUR RELATIONS”

Some experts believe that Yanukovych lost interest in Poland because during the presidential elections in Ukraine the ruling Civil Platform party supported another candidate, Tymoshenko to be precise. What can you say about it?

“There is a tradition in Europe for political parties to have partners abroad. But it doesn’t prevent them from respecting other political forces and cooperating with them after the elections if they come to power. After all, for us the Polish-Ukrainian cooperation is not a question of party interests. It is a question of the national interest of Poland. In Poland we don’t notice a loss of interest to Ukraine. There are no signals from Kyiv which could decrease this interest either. I want to stress once again that Polish society as well as Polish public opinion with a great respect pointed out the presence of Ukraine’s president during the funeral of the president.”

Mr. Ambassador, are those Polish politicians, European deputies, right in saying that Warsaw is waiting to see what policy Kyiv is going to have towards Poland?

“This is normal. Parties observe each other. I think Ukraine also observes Poland. But I can assure you that in autumn we will renew the intensity of our relations. I think they will have more pragmatism. This is, particularly, connected with solving a number of specific questions which should be approached in a pragmatic way. The following event will also take place: a sitting of the commission on economic cooperation.”

“THE GOVERNMENT IS MOVING TOWARDS THE EU NOT WITH WORDS BUT WITH DEEDS”

They say it looks better than it is. Do you see the real current government’s will to integrate into the EU and introduce European standards in Ukraine?

“For Poland the European integration course of Ukraine is very beneficial, and therefore we have always been advocates of your country joining the EU. This course is also beneficial for Ukraine. We are glad Ukraine is following this path. We appreciate that the Ukrainian parliament recently managed to adopt some important laws which bring Ukraine closer to European standards. In particular, this concerns the law on state purchases, and the law on regulating the gas market and changes in tariff policy, owing to which the cooperation of Ukraine and the IMF has been renewed. This, in my opinion, is essential for the realization of Ukraine’s European direction. The government is moving towards the EU not with words but with deeds. We welcome these achie­ve­ments of the Ukrainian government and parliament, because we are sure that a pro-European course is expressed in concrete decisions.”

Regarding issues like freedom of speech and assembly? Are you not concerned about how the new ­go­vernment treats these European ­va­lues? Many Ukrainian and Western experts draw attention to the fact that the government tries to control mass media, limit the freedom of assembly, etc.

“This is an important issue. Certainly, one can say that besides optimism there is some concern as well. Above all, we are worried by the too slow pace of negotiations regarding the free trade zone with the European Union. But this question concerns more than just this government. Negotiations have been held for two years already. Only four sectors were agreed upon in these negotiations, and over 20 uncoordinated questions are left. This worries us a lot. Of course, the European standards are another important issue. We have always believed that in the domain of the freedom of speech and human rights Ukraine is a real leader among the CIS countries. We wish Ukraine to remain in that position. I think the press as the fourth power will always have problems with the government, and it’s normal. But the real test of the standards of the freedom of speech, human rights, and the right of choice will be the election campaign to the local government. I think that in the sphere of keeping to human rights and the freedom of speech, Ukraine will continue being a leader and a model for other CIS countries.”

“KOMOROWSKI HAS A VERY POSITIVE ATTITUDE TOWARDS UKRAINE”

Mr. Ambassador, you have already mentioned that the inauguration of the new president of Poland will take place on Friday. Is a change of your country’s policy towards Ukraine to be expected?

“Indeed, in the Polish system the president has relatively broad competencies compared to the most West European countries. It is written in the Constitution that the president is the first actor in international relations of Poland, but at the same time, it is pointed out that president conducts the international policy determined by the government. This also concerns the security. Traditionally, the president has an influence on the international policy at least because he appoints ambassadors. And this is a very considerable instrument.

“I don’t think any problems can emerge now. Both president and the minister of foreign affairs are representatives of one political force. I have known President Bronislaw Komorowski for many years and I can say that his attitude towards Ukraine is very positive, and generally towards the activity of Poland in the east. Early this year he published an article in Gazeta Wyborcza. At that time Komorowski, not even being a presidential candidate yet — just the vice president of the ruling party, spoke with a strong statement stressing the necessity of the consistent continuation of the policy which is Giedroyc’s will: Poland should be active in the east. He stressed that our country must continue the way it started in 1989.”

But, as it is known, the ruling party and its leader Donald Tusk seek good relations with Russia. Can it somehow influence the relations between our countries?

“I don’t think this is a threat, especially given the current policy of Ukraine in improving relations with Russia. In my opinion, on the contrary, this can make it easier to develop Polish-Ukrainian relations.”

“DURING THE LAST TWO YEARS OUR INFLUENCE ON THE ACTIVITIES IN THE EU HAS BEEN INCREASING”

Can it be expected that with the new president the role of Poland and its influence in the EU will increase, especially in view of the fact that the previous president often isolated Poland?

“The role of Poland and its influence in the European Union can increase only provided that Poland will consider itself a part of the European community and the European pro­cess. A country that is isolated doesn’t have a real influence. I think during the last two years our influence on the activities in the EU has been increa­sing. And this happened precisely because we don’t argue with the European Commission on all issues and reasons. We limited the number of debatable problems in our relations with the European Commission. Second, our influence also increases because Poland is one of the big European countries, and it takes the sixth place demographically. One should also note that the economic position of Poland is also improving. Our country was the only EU-member to experience economic growth last year. And of course, it influences our position.”

What’s Poland’s attitude to the recommendations of your compatriot Zbigniew Brzezinski who in his interview recommended Warsaw to become one of initiators of establishing a Central-European bloc within the EU which would lobby its own interests inside the European community?

“We have been establishing such a bloc since the mid-1990s. There is the Visegrad Four. Before important EU summits we always try to coordinate our positions. By the way, the principle countries which have the biggest influence in the EU — Germany, France, and Great Britain — very much appreciate the role of Poland. An example of this attitude is creating a political format of consultations with Germany and France for promoting Poland’s joining the EU, which is called the ‘Weimar Triangle.’ We made sure that such a format works very actively after our joining the European Union as well. There are many specific issues which one or another country wants to adopt through the summit of the European Council. And this can’t be done without Poland, and moreover, without the Visegrad Four which is joined by other countries of Central and Eastern Europe, first of all the Baltics, and also Slovenia. Not always, but often we act as a single bloc.”

“ONLY UNITY CAN SAVE US, OUR POSITION IN THE WORLD, AND OUR VALUES”

By the way, in the same interview Zbigniew Brzezinski stated that there was no definite political leadership in Europe. Until recently there was a popular saying coined by Henry Kissinger “Who shall I call to talk to Europe?”. Now, after introducing the post of the high representative of the European Union for international relations and the safety policy last year, there is an anecdote that on Kathryn Ashton’s table there is an answering machine with a record: if you want to know the position of Germany, France, and Great Britain please press a corresponding button. What can you say about it?

“What can be explained here? Obviously, the countries of Europe didn’t wish to have a ‘distinct political leadership’ this far. Referendums in France and Holland in 2005, and in Ireland in 2008, showed that one shouldn’t be hasty about closer integration. European nations want to remain independent. So far there is no agreement on something like the United States of Europe, or a confederation of the European states. The European Union is a real commonwealth of independent and sovereign states. That is why Poland and many other countries supported the compromise which was achieved in Lisbon. At present, we don’t speak about the next steps of the integration but are trying to finish this phase.”

But Brzezinski, in the meanwhile, says that there is a disintegration process taking place in Europe…

“I’m not a political scientist. Analyzing the issue not from the viewpoint of political science, but from the practical one, I believe that there is no disintegration. The Lisbon agreement came into effect consolidating all instruments of the integration. Both the Euro zone and Schengen zone have expanded. At the same time the international policy of the EU has been consolidating. How can one speak about disintegration? Moreover, there is an understanding among the European countries that the EU is the biggest economic power in the world, and thus the community must participate in the global competition and win. There is also an understanding that only unity can save us, our position in the world, and our values. There is a desire for that. Certainly, this doesn’t happen overnight or in one year.”

“A GAS SUPERPOWER? IT’S A JOKE”

By the way, what is your attitude to the fact that some western publications, in view of discovering deposits of gas-containing shale on the territory of your country, call Poland the next gas superpower?

“A gas superpower? It’s a joke. Shale gas is indeed very important. Of course, it’s very big for Ukraine as well. But so far we know only about the experience of two countries, the US and Canada, on developing shale gas. In both countries this experience is ambiguous, though it showed countries which possess deposits of natural gas that there are alternative options for the extraction of blue fuels. And therefore an endless gas price increase won’t take place. But we have a different geological structure compared to the US. Estimates show that the extraction of gas will be more expensive than in the US or Canada. Other expenses should be calculated, too. This process, of course, will develop since it’s very positive for Poland, but this is the case not for the next five years, but perhaps closer to 2020. Then this factor will be capable of having a more serious influence on the gas balance in Poland.”

By the way, the article of Global Post entitled “Poland: the Next Gas State?” points out that the opposition criticizes the new contract prepared by the Polish government with Gazprom for the term of 2037, paying attention to the fact that it threatens the independence of Poland. What can you say about it?

“That is really the case. The contract with Gazprom was preliminarily agreed with our state gas monopolist. But there is an argument at the same time.”

What is it about?

“It’s a rather difficult issue. On the one hand, the European Commission has remarks regarding this contract for it contradicts some directives. And now the contract is revised from the viewpoint of its conformity to the European legislation. However, regarding the opposition’s remarks, it asks: why should a new gas contract with Russia be concluded and for such a long term? This is the right of the opposition to criticize.”