“We want Ukraine to obtain NATO membership”

Last week a delegation of the US House Committee on Armed Services, led by Mike Rogers, visited Ukraine. The Day did not miss an opportunity to talk directly to the Republican Mike ROGERS and Democrat Rick LARSEN and find out the reasons for eliminating Article 7 (stipulating Ukraine’s status as a US major non-NATO ally) from the draft Ukraine Freedom Support Act of 2014.

Mike ROGERS: “I don’t know why it was removed, but I don’t think that is necessarily a bad thing because what we really want for Ukraine is to get a NATO member status. So, we can put our full energy into gaining a NATO member status for Ukraine.”

Rick LARSEN: “I have a different perspective on that. Probably, in the process of writing legislation it needed to be removed, so there would be a lot more support for the bill, because the discussion about granting major non-NATO ally status to Ukraine needs to be more embraced in Congress. I think it’s something very much worth exploring, but I think when you look back at the debate that we’d had to get the Ukraine Freedom Support Act passed, that portion probably needs more in-depth discussion, because it’s a very, very strong commitment. It has to do, largely, with the selling of military material to Ukraine, and that’s a discussion that Congress is already having.”

Some of our experts are afraid that Obama will not sign this bill into law. What do you think?

R.L.: “Yes, I think Obama will sign it. I’ve had this discussion with your parliamentarians. The fact that the president hasn’t yet signed it, even if it was sent to him just a couple of days ago, means nothing in terms of his commitment. It’s on his desk, I think it’ll get signed. I’ve emailed my staff on the way to communicate the White House about the desire that we heard for the president to sign it.”

M.R.: “I feel confident that the president is going to sign it as well. I can’t think of a good reason for him not to.”

As the Budapest Memorandum, which the US also signed, failed to secure Ukraine’s territorial integrity, the Ukrainians wonder if the US is doing enough to help Ukraine stop the Donbas conflict and regain Crimea. What will you say to this?

R.L.: “I think the US is doing a lot right now to help restore the territorial integrity of Ukraine. If we look at the sanctions regime that President Obama helped put together, and helped lead the European Union into, when we look at what the Congress have done to pass the Ukraine Freedom Support Act, I think you can make the case of the United States is doing quite a lot to help restore the territorial integrity of Ukraine.”

M.R.: “I think the US has done some positive things, but we can do a lot more, should do a lot more, and I believe will do a lot more, to push back against this Russian aggression on the territorial integrity of Ukraine.”

Do you think sanction can restrain Putin or some other measures need to be taken?

M.R.: “I personally don’t think sanctions will stop him. I think it’s going to take a stronger show of European and the US support for Ukraine, both economically and militarily, before he realizes that this type of behavior will not be acceptable now, nor in the future.”

R.L.: “I don’t think there is any one thing that will stop Putin. I think it’s a combination of things and the sanctions regime is part of that. I think the Ukraine Freedom Support Act is part of that. We have approved 75 million dollars to support Ukraine in the most recent budget. I think the most important thing to stop Putin is the continued development and strength of Ukrainian democracy, and the United States needs to continue to support the reforms taking place in the military, in the justice department, in the economy, so that the message clearly coming from the Ukrainian people is that they want to be part of Europe, and they want connections with the West. If that is made perfectly clear to Putin, nothing will stop that.”

But you may have heard Poroshenko say in Congress that one cannot win a war with blankets...

R.L.: “He did say that. He also said that we don’t need to build democracy in Ukraine, we only need to defend it. And that’s an important point. That message wasn’t just to American people, that message was to Russia as well. Ukraine has a democracy, and we all are going to defend it. You don’t just defend democracy with the military (which you do as well), but our practice shows that you defend democracy by continuing to practice democracy. Once the message gets through Russia’s head, I think they’ll have to give up on what they’re doing.”

M.R.: “I do agree that non-lethal support alone will not be enough. It is going to take lethal support, as well as economic and military initiatives, to support Ukraine’s efforts.”

Do you think it is high time for our countries to jointly produce armaments?

M.R.: “Ukrainian people have to understand – and I’m talking about the full population, not just the leadership – that until corruption is removed from your economy, it just is not going to happen. Foreign companies will not come to Ukraine just to be shaken down.”

R.L.: “I wouldn’t get specific about which capability needs to be developed, but I think there are opportunities for the United States to facilitate US companies helping Ukrainian companies. But US companies won’t do that if they feel that the justice system won’t protect them, the legal system won’t protect them because of corruption. And we have very strong laws in the States, the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, that punishes US companies involved in any corrupt activities overseas.”

What is your impression of Ukraine, for this is the first time you are here?

R.L.: “I know this: that there are 435 congressional districts in the United States. Of 435 districts, my district is number 9 on having the most Ukrainian Americans of any district in my country: about 10,000 Ukrainian Americans. And before I came over here, I told two women who were working at a factory in my district, Nadia and Ruslana: ‘I’m going to Ukraine,’ and they were almost crying that I was going there. And they told me to say hello to Ukraine for them. So, tonight I will be taking some pictures on Maidan and sending them to let them know I was here.”

M.R.: “Two things: one, that Kyiv is much bigger than I expected, and I’ve been very much impressed by the clear-eyed view that I’ve met from the defense minister and the Members of Parliament as     to their problems, and their willingness to tackle corruption.”

History has already known Nazism, Stalinism, and now Ruscism. In what way do you think Russian society can be cured of this new malady?

R.L.: “It’s not fair to say that we can cure Russia when we are saying the folks you can best defend Ukraine and Ukrainians, and so I think it’s eventually the folks that can best deal with Russia or the Russians. A question you have been dealing with for three or four hundred years.”

M.R.: “And it’s going to require a free press. The Russian people are never going to recognize how good things could be, unless they know a full breadth of information about what their options are, by looking around the world and seeing what’s happening elsewhere. Right now they just don’t have that. As much as the press can be an aggravation for me, I would not get rid of it because it’s essential to having a democracy.”